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Elizabeth Cheney, Seventeenth Great-Grandmother

August 14, 2018 3 Comments

 Elizabeth Cheney

Elizabeth Cheney

My 17th great-grandmother was married twice.  She was the great-grandmother of Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, and Catherine Howard, who all met an unfortunate end as wives of Henry VIII.  That is really a coincidence, I think. She was buried with her second husband St. Augustine church at Broxbourne.

 Sir John and Lady Elizabeth Say are buried together at Broxbourne, Hertfordshire.

Sir John and Lady Elizabeth Say are buried together at Broxbourne, Hertfordshire.

Elizabeth Cheney (1420 – 1473)
17th great-grandmother
Elizabeth Tilney (1450 – 1497)
Daughter of Elizabeth Cheney
Lord Thomas Howard (1473 – 1554)
Son of Elizabeth Tilney
Lady Katherine Howard Duchess Bridgewater (1495 – 1554)
Daughter of Lord Thomas Howard
William ApRhys (1522 – 1588)
Son of Lady Katherine Howard Duchess Bridgewater
Henry Rice (1555 – 1621)
Son of William ApRhys
Edmund Rice (1594 – 1663)
Son of Henry Rice
Edward Rice (1622 – 1712)
Son of Edmund Rice
Lydia Rice (1649 – 1723)
Daughter of Edward Rice
Lydia Woods (1672 – 1738)
Daughter of Lydia Rice
Lydia Eager (1696 – 1735)
Daughter of Lydia Woods
Mary Thomas (1729 – 1801)
Daughter of Lydia Eager
Joseph Morse III (1756 – 1835)
Son of Mary Thomas
John Henry Morse (1775 – 1864)
Son of Joseph Morse III
Abner Morse (1808 – 1838)
Son of John Henry Morse
Daniel Rowland Morse (1838 – 1910)
Son of Abner Morse
Jason A Morse (1862 – 1932)
Son of Daniel Rowland Morse
Ernest Abner Morse (1890 – 1965)
Son of Jason A Morse
Richard Arden Morse (1920 – 2004)
Son of Ernest Abner Morse
Pamela Morse
I am the daughter of Richard Arden Morse

Elizabeth Cheney (April 1422 – 25 September 1473), later known as Elizabeth, Lady Tilney and Elizabeth, Lady Say, was an English aristocrat, who, by dint of her two marriages, was the great-grandmother of Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, and Catherine Howard, three of the wives of King Henry VIII of England, thus making her great-great-grandmother to King Edward VI, the son of Henry VIII and Jane Seymour, and Elizabeth I, the daughter of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. Her first husband was Sir Frederick Tilney, and her second husband was Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons. She produced a total of nine children from both marriages.

Born in Fen Ditton, Cambridgeshire in April 1422, she was the eldest child of Laurence or Lawrence Cheney or Cheyne, Esq. (c. 1396 – 1461), High Sheriff of Cambridgeshire and Elizabeth Cokayn or Cokayne  Her paternal grandparents were Sir William Cheney and Katherine Pabenham, and her maternal grandparents were Sir John Cockayne, Chief Baron of the Exchequer and Ida de Grey, the daughter of Reginald Grey, 2nd Baron Grey de Ruthyn and Eleanor Le Strange of Blackmere.

On an unknown date, Elizabeth married her first husband Sir Frederick Tilney, of Ashwellthorpe, Norfolk, and Boston, Lincolnshire. He was the son of Sir Philip Tilney and Isabel Thorpe. They made their principal residence at Ashwellthorpe Manor. The couple had one daughter:
Elizabeth Tilney (before 1445 – 4 April 1497), married firstly in about 1466, Sir Humphrey Bourchier, by whom she had three children; and secondly on 30 April 1472, Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey, who later became the 2nd Duke of Norfolk, by whom she had nine children. These children included Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, Elizabeth Howard, mother of Anne Boleyn, and Lord Edmund Howard, father of Catherine Howard.

Sir Frederick Tilney died in 1445, leaving their young daughter Elizabeth as heiress to his estates. Shortly before 1 December 1446, Elizabeth Cheney married secondly Sir John Say, of Broxbourne, Hertfordshire, Speaker of the House of Commons, and a member of the household of King Henry VI. He was a member of the embassy, led by William de la Pole, which was sent to France in 1444 to negotiate with King Charles VII for the marriage between King Henry and Margaret of Anjou.  Her father settled land worth fifty marks clear per annum upon the couple and their issue before Candlemas, 1453. They made their home at Broxbourne, Hertfordshire.

Sir John Say and Elizabeth had three sons and four daughters:
Sir William Say (1452- 1529), of Baas (in Broxbourne), Bedwell (in Essendon), Bennington, Little Berkhampstead, and Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, Lawford, Essex, Market Overton, Rutland, etc., Burgess (M.P.) for Plympton, Knight of the Shire for Hertfordshire, Sheriff of Somerset and Dorset, 1478–9, Sheriff of Essex and Hertfordshire, 1482–3, Justice of the Peace for Hertfordshire, 1486–1506, and, in right of his 1st wife, of East Lydford, Radstock, Spaxton, Wellesleigh, and Wheathill, Somerset, and, in right of his 2nd wife, of Wormingford Hall (in Wormingford), Essex, Great Munden, Hertfordshire, etc. He married (1st) before 18 November 1472 (date of letters of attorney) Genevieve Hill, daughter/heiress of John Hill, of Spaxton, Somerset. She was still alive in 1478. He married (2nd) shortly after 18 April 1480 Elizabeth Fray, widow of Sir Thomas Waldegrave, by whom he had two daughters, Mary Say and Elizabeth Say.
Mary, the eldest daughter married Henry Bourchier, 1st Earl of Essex and 6th Baron Bourchier, by whom she had one daughter, Anne Bourchier, 7th Baroness Bourchier
Thomas Say, of Liston Hall, Essex.
Leonard Say, clerk, Rector of Spaxton, Somerset. See Testamenta Eboracensia, 4 (Surtees Soc. 53) (1869): 86–88 (will of Leonard Say, clerk).
Anne Say (died 1478/1494), married Henry Wentworth, K.B., of Nettlestead, Suffolk, Goxhill, Lincolnshire, Parlington and Pontefract, Yorkshire, and of London, Esquire of the Household, Knight of the Body, Sheriff of Norfolk and Suffolk, 1481–82, Sheriff of Yorkshire, 1489–90, 1492, Knight of the Shire for Yorkshire, 1491–92, by whom she had issue, including Margery Wentworth, mother of Jane Seymour.
Mary Say, married Sir Philip Calthorpe, Knt., by whom she had issue.
Margaret Say, married Thomas Sampson, Esq.
Katherine Say, married Thomas Bassingbourne.

On 25 September 1473, aged 51, Elizabeth Cheney died. She was buried in the church at Broxbourne. Following her death, John Say remarried to Agnes Danvers. He died five years later on 12 April 1478. Sometime after 1478, Elizabeth’s eldest son, Sir William Say, married his second wife, Elizabeth Fray, a daughter of his stepmother Agnes, by her first husband, Sir John Fray (1419- 1461), Chief Baron of the Exchequer.

John Smith Roskell, Parliament and Politics in Late Medieval England, Vol. 2, Google Books, accessed 9 September 2009
Lundy, Darryl. “p.335.htm#3342”. The Peerage.
Ida Ashworth Taylor, Lady Jane Grey and Her Times, page 8, Google Books, accessed 3 September 2009
John Smith Roskell, Parliament and Politics in Late

Sir John Say, 1478, and wife Elizabeth, 1473, Broxbourne, Hertfordshire.

Sir John Say, 1478, and wife Elizabeth, 1473, Broxbourne, Hertfordshire.

Robert Sackville, 2nd Earl of Dorset, 13th Great-Grandfather

January 2, 2015 7 Comments

Dorset Coat of Arms

Dorset Coat of Arms

Robert Sackville, 2nd Earl of Dorset, served in the House of Commons.  Like the Downton Abbey family, the Sackvilles have two last names..Dorset is the name for the Earldom and Sackville is the family name.  It is confusing, but the entire peer business is hard to understand. This family was heavily entwined with royalty at a dangerous time to be so.  His wife was suspected of being crypto-Catholic, a very highly punishable offense in Tudor times.  She survived by hiding her religion.

Robert Dorset (1525 – 1609)
is my 13th great grandfather
Lady Ann Dorset (1552 – 1680)
daughter of Robert Dorset
Robert Lewis (1574 – 1645)
son of Lady Ann Dorset
Robert Lewis (1607 – 1644)
son of Robert Lewis
Ann Lewis (1633 – 1686)
daughter of Robert Lewis
Joshua Morse (1669 – 1753)
son of Ann Lewis
Joseph Morse (1692 – 1759)
son of Joshua Morse
Joseph Morse (1721 – 1776)
son of Joseph Morse
Joseph Morse III (1752 – 1835)
son of Joseph Morse
John Henry Morse (1775 – 1864)
son of Joseph Morse III
Abner Morse (1808 – 1838)
son of John Henry Morse
Daniel Rowland Morse (1838 – 1910)
son of Abner Morse
Jason A Morse (1862 – 1932)
son of Daniel Rowland Morse
Ernest Abner Morse (1890 – 1965)
son of Jason A Morse
Richard Arden Morse (1920 – 2004)
son of Ernest Abner Morse
Pamela Morse
I am the daughter of Richard Arden Morse

Robert Sackville, 2nd Earl of Dorset (1561–1609) was an English aristocrat and politician, with humanist and commercial interests.
He was the eldest son of Thomas Sackville, 1st Earl of Dorset, by Cecily, daughter of Sir John Baker. His grandfather, Sir Richard Sackville, invited Roger Ascham to educate Robert with his own son, an incident inn 1563 that Ascham introduced into his pedagogic work The Scholemaster (1570) as prompting the book. He matriculated from Hart Hall, Oxford, 17 December 1576, and graduated B.A. and M.A. on 3 June 1579; it appears from his father’s will that he was also at New College.
He was admitted to the Inner Temple in 1580 but not called to the bar, and was elected to the House of Commons in 1585 as member for Sussex, aged 23, by his father’s influence. In 1588 he sat for Lewes, but represented the county again in 1592–3, 1597–8, 1601, and 1604–8. He was a prominent member of the Commons, serving as a chairman of several committees. At the same time he engaged in trading ventures, and held a patent for the supply of ordnance.
He succeeded to the earldom of Dorset on the death of his father on 19 April 1608. He inherited from his father manors in Sussex, Essex, Kent, and Middlesex, the principal seats being Knole and Buckhurst. Dorset survived his father less than a year, dying on 27 February 1609 at Dorset House, Fleet Street, London. He was buried in the Sackville Chapel at Withyham, Sussex, and left money for the building and endowment of Sackville College.
Dorset married first, in February 1580, Lady Margaret, only daughter of Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk, then suspected as a crypto-Catholic. By her he had six children, including:
Richard who became third earl;
Edward, fourth earl;
Anne, married Sir Edward Seymour, eldest son of Edward Seymour, Viscount Beauchamp,
Cecily, married Sir Henry Compton, K.B.
Lady Margaret, in fact a devout Catholic, died on 19 August 1591; Robert Southwell, who never met her, published in her honour, in 1596, Triumphs over Death, with dedicatory verses to her surviving children.
Dorset married, secondly, on 4 December 1592, Anne (d. 22 September 1618), daughter of Sir John Spencer of Althorp, and widow of, first, William Stanley, 3rd Baron Monteagle, and, secondly, Henry Compton, 1st Baron Compton. In 1608–9 Dorset found reason to complain of his second wife’s misconduct, and was negotiating with Archbishop Richard Bancroft and Lord Ellesmere for a separation from her when he died.
^ Lawrence V. Ryan, Roger Ascham (1963), pp. 252–3.
^ J. E. Neale, The Elizabethan House of Commons (1963), p. 63 and p. 293.
^ Scott R. Pilarz, Robert Southwell and the Mission of Literature, 1561-1595 (2004), p. 204.
This article incorporates text from the entry Sackville, Robert in the Dictionary of National Biography (1885–1900), a publication now in the public domain.
Political officesPreceded by
The Earl of NottinghamThe Earl of NorthumberlandLord Lieutenant of Sussex
Title next held by
The 3rd Earl of DorsetPeerage of EnglandPreceded by
Thomas Sackville Earl of Dorset
1608–1609Succeeded by
Richard Sackville

Clan O’Byrne

July 26, 2013 2 Comments

O'Byrne COA

O’Byrne COA

Recorded as O’ Byrne but more usually as Byrne, this is an Irish surname of great antiquity. Claiming descent from Bran, the king of Leinster, who died in 1052, this great clan originated in County Kildare where they held extensive territory until the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169 – 1170, when they migrated to Wicklow where they occupied the country between Rathdrum and Shillelagh. Their name in Irish is properly O’ Broin, meaning the male descendant of Bron, the raven. The O’ Broins, like their neighbours the O’ Tooles, were particularly noteworthy for their resistance to foreign aggression, and they continued to inaugurate native chiefs up to the end of the 16th Century. The seat of their chiefs was at Ballinacor, County Wicklow, and the territory over which they held sway was known as Crioch Branach. The celebrated “Leabhar Branach” or “Book of the O’ Byrnes” deals with the exploits of the clan in these times. Alderman Alfred Byrne (1882 – 1956), a distinguished recent member of the clan, was ten times Lord Mayor of Dublin. The Byrne coat of arms has the blazon of a red shield charged with a chevron between three silver dexter hands couped at the wrist, the Crest being a mermaid with comb and mirror proper. The first recorded spelling of the family name may be that of Fiacha Mac Hugh O’Byrne, the military leader. This was dated 1544 – 1595, in the Historical Records of Dublin, during the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1st of England, 1558 – 1603.

Patrick O’Byrne (1817 – 1890)

is my 3rd great grandfather
James Oscar Byrne (1840 – 1879)
son of Patrick O’Byrne
Sarah Helena Byrne (1878 – 1962)
daughter of James Oscar Byrne
Olga Fern Scott (1897 – 1968)
daughter of Sarah Helena Byrne
Richard Arden Morse (1920 – 2004)
son of Olga Fern Scott
Pamela Morse
I am the daughter of Richard Arden Morse
The O’Byrne family of County Meathe, Ireland came to America during the famine.  Two of his children died on the passage across the Atlantic on the ship Corra Linn. The traveled in steerage and arrived in New York from Liverpool on 28 September, 1848.  There is no record of the family staying in New York City.  They had a home in Wilna, New York,which is  in Jefferson County, upstate.  When I started my family tree research years ago I had notes from my great grandmother Sarah Helena Byrne.  The O’Byrnes left their home and worldly goods to the Catholic church, and the notes say that all the family records are in a Catholic church in Wilna, NY.  I do know exactly where they lived, and have tried to figure out if the church they attended is still there. I would love to know more about my clan in Ireland.  I want to go to Dublin someday; I feel certain I will like it.

Dreams of Symptom Exchange

May 22, 2013 4 Comments



Since returning home after ancestry quest I have tracked my dream life.  I think  am digesting centuries of action in my nightly dramatic  interpretations.  My homework assignment to record dreams and notice the archetypes I find in them has not been completed in a very rigorous fashion.  During my weekend with Thomas Moore we talked about dreams and did a group discussion about one lady’s dream that she shared with us.  My guilt about not doing homework as the rebel archetype dominates the teacher in my chart of origin, came into focus.  I fell deeply to sleep that night and did start to notice and record dreams on a regular basis while I was still on the road.  I visited homes and graves, museums and city streets where the specific ancestors lived and died.  I started to have some strong emotions about history and groups of the dead.

Although Mayflower ancestry is highly valued by some, I am much more excited about those who rebeled against the Pilgrims.  The sooner they dissed Plymouth, Salem, and the Pilgrim way of religious fascism the more I liked them.  My special pride in my one Wampanoag ancestor makes me feel entitled to some explanations.  They will not be forthcoming, and I need to understand that I am the sum total of many warring factions going back in time.  While Mary Stuart was burning one ancestor at the stake, another ancestor was defending her in Scotland.  This is how life works.  We do not just have two crazy parents, we have all of karmic history in our collective inheritance.

I  have had a dream now more than once that is symbolic and clear.  I enter a big building, box, loft, kind of structure, where I am joined by all kinds of other beings from past and present..maybe future also.  The place is intended to heal, but the multiple streams of energy mix and collide inside the space.  The beings leave having exchanged symptoms with other people, leaving with new issues, side effects and thoughts.  The desire to dump one’s own faults on others who are handy is at the root of this gift exchange gone so bad.  Common practice is to blame the dead, or the absent for almost everything, trying to leave with only shining and laudable characteristics.  This creates a mighty vortex that fills with neediness and greed once the door to the blame barn has been left ajar.  A boomerang of dreadful feelings never fails to be returned to the sender.  I am no dream interpretation expert, not even a very faithful recorder in the past.  This series of dreams in the warehouse health space is about healing, boundaries, and inevitability.  I haves used the flower essence Mexican Hat recently, which I find to be powerful and freaky. It is blooming in my garden in a few places. Under this hat’s influence the connections to others that we wish to ignore are highlighted.  This flower essence refers to boundaries and healing, exactly like the dreams.   Reflection is imperative to interpret both sides of symptoms, causes, and remedies.

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